New Law Requiring Deliberative Poll Process for Constitutional Amendment in Mongolia

10 Responses

keithsutherland, on May 3, 2017 at 6:57 pm said:

It’s very interesting that the DP is being enthusiastically accepted in countries like China and Mongolia (rather than Western electoral democracies). We have a workshop next week in the politics department at Exeter Uni on deliberative democracy in China.

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Jonathan Crock, on May 3, 2017 at 7:12 pm said:

From what Fishkin has said, I understand that in the PRC, DP is not pitched as being a democratic method, but rather as being a scientific method. With the PRC having a stated commitment to scientific governance, DP fits with that commitment.

It would be very interesting to hear a readout of that workshop on deliberative democracy in China.

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keithsutherland, on May 4, 2017 at 6:35 am said:

Jonathan,

>I understand that in the PRC, DP is not pitched as being a democratic method, but rather as being a scientific method. With the PRC having a stated commitment to scientific governance, DP fits with that commitment.

Yes indeed. But the considered and informed preferences of a scientifically-sampled microcosm of the demos might well come to be seen as a better form of popular democracy than the uninformed whim of everybody. Fishkin has claimed that ‘in China, we see the first glimmerings of another model’ of deliberative politics (When the People Speak, p. 155). See my Open Democracy article Chinese Democracy: ‘scientific, democratic and legal’

https://www.opendemocracy.net/ourkingdom/keith-sutherland/chinese-democracy-%E2%80%98scientific-democratic-and-legal%E2%80%99

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Jonathan Crock, on May 4, 2017 at 12:08 pm said:

Thanks for the great article link. I think it’s particularly important that you point out in the article the prejudices involved (“Contrary to our prejudices, China has a surprisingly decentralised political system and in some localities there is a strong tradition of kentan (convening heart-to-heart discussion meetings).”). A recent book on this, Legal Orientalism: China, the United States, and Modern Law, by Teemu Ruskola offers an interesting exploration of the question of “How did lawlessness become an axiom about Chineseness rather than a fact needing to be verified empirically, and how did the United States assume the mantle of law’s universal appeal?”

I also see in the comments to your article that Yoram Gat raises ten important questions about DP methodology and other issues, a number of which also apply to the Mongolia case.

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keithsutherland, on May 4, 2017 at 12:37 pm said:

Jonathan,

>I also see in the comments to your article that Yoram Gat raises ten important questions about DP methodology and other issues, a number of which also apply to the Mongolia case.

Yes, Yoram’s critique focuses on the lack of initiative and executive powers of the DP minipublic. Fishkin’s claim of “another model” is dualistic — “deliberative democracy by [a statistical sample of] the people themselves and elite deliberation by an elected body” (ibid., p. 156). The latter’s role is primarily agenda setting (coming up with the alternatives) and it fits well with my own neo-Harringtonian model, given the unsuitability of an allotted body for representative isegoria. It should also be pointed out that given that the allotted body has the final word, the elite body is (cybernetically) constrained to make proposals that are likely to be acceptable to the minipublic. Neither Fishkin’s nor my own work deals with the executive function and it remains an open question as to whether Western-style competitive elections or (reflexive) one-party technocracy is the optimal medium for policy development.

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Yoram Gat, on May 4, 2017 at 1:53 pm said:

A system which is not laden with the contradictions of an electoral system (namely, democratic ideology coupled with an oligarchical government) can afford to be more adventurous with the devices it experiments with. Here is an example of how careful reform proposals in the Western system are:

Citizens will have been briefed about their different learning styles and the importance of critical thinking for the interrogation of expert knowledge [See, Critical Thinking]. Depending on the size of the group, the questioning of experts can vary; however, since small group work is used even in large juries, this variation is minimal.

Consider the application of the following method to a small (Eurobodalla, NSW), medium (Geelong, Victoria) and large mini-public (South Australian Nuclear Waste). The jury is divided into groups of six (to match the six different approaches to critical thinking). The room is divided into circles of chairs – seven to each circle – one chair in each circle is empty. There are seven groups in each room (with larger juries, many rooms are used).

The session may have started with an expert panel, with each person offering a very brief explanation of his/her knowledge and experience – in other words, what information they consider themselves qualified to comment upon. This may be covered in written materials or be addressed in a plenary session.

These experts then enter a room with forty-two participants (7 x 6), and each of the six experts occupies one of the empty chairs, with one group without an expert. This pause group’s task is to discuss the questions that are going to be asked or have already been asked depending on the time that the group pauses.

A period of 10-15 minutes is allocated to each round. The expert is expected to answer questions during each round, with questions that are initiated by the participants, then they move to the next circle. It’s not a time for declaratory speeches, it’s a time to satisfy each group’s curiosity. Experts are often exhausted by this process because the questions are very exploratory and often challenging.

After the groups have completed their questioning there will typically be a period for gathering facts that jurors require checking or information gaps that need to be addressed. These outstanding questions are placed on boards around the room and are answered over the course of the mini public [See, Deliberation].

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keithsutherland, on May 4, 2017 at 3:13 pm said:

I don’t see that there is any connection between this New Democracy document and electoralism. It would appear to be procedural guidelines to ensure that deliberation is well informed and reflects the current state of knowledge regarding different styles of cognition. As such the procedural norms described in this briefing would be just as relevant for deliberation in Australia, USA, China, Mongolia or wherever. It certainly does indicate that researchers like Lyn Carson (who have been working in this field for a very long time) would have little patience with siren calls to point an allotted sample and then leave everything down to chance. What’s wrong with being careful?

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David Schecter, on May 5, 2017 at 3:06 am said:

Yoram, the newDemocracy research note that you cite is not a reform proposal. It talks about one aspect of deliberation process — hearing from experts — and summarizes what newDemocracy has learned from its experience.

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Yoram Gat, on May 5, 2017 at 9:10 am said:

Hi David,

I am not sure what your point is. Clearly, the note is a component of the procedures proposed by newDemocracy as a way to reform government. It is very clear is that newDemocracy sees its legitimate role to make very detailed procedural designs that are aimed to make sure that certain goals are obtained. This seems like a very problematic role to assume reflecting a very problematic line of thought for a reformer.

Specifically about the proposal in the note: What newDemocracy has apparently “learned from its experience” is that the interaction between the allotted and witnesses (“experts”) must be carefully managed by the organizers, and in particular that a strict limit to the time allowed for interaction with each witness should be imposed. This is a very questionable lesson with predictable implications.

As an aside, the claim that these instructions represent something “learned from experience” is unsubstantiated by the text. No evidence is provided that the proposed procedure is either better or worse than any other procedure. In fact, no clear description of what “better” or “worse” would even mean in this context.

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2017 review – sortition-related events | Equality by lot, on December 23, 2017 at 10:14 am said:

[…] wrote in their opinion that the most important sortition-related event of 2017 was the adoption by law in Mongolia of deliberative polling as part of its constitutional amendment process. The opinions in the exit […]

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